Egregoros

@feld@friedcheese.us remote

@feld I'm seeing a lot of outrage based on Thomas's opinion that being trans isnt an immutable characteristic

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@georgia it's hard to swallow but he's not wrong. A not insignificant number of people de-transition which means it's obviously not an immutable characteristic.

It sucks but it's true.

Blurry Moon

@sun@shitposter.world remote

@feld @georgia I'm not trying to attac trans people but its just obviously also true that you literally can't know without talking to a person, and then you can't derive intent why someone says they are, why they transitioned, or why they detransitioned. if you can frame this as an immutable characteristic that would be insanely weird

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@scathach@stereophonic.space remote

@sun @feld @georgia Unfortunately it absolutely is an immutable characteristic

Blurry Moon

@sun@shitposter.world remote

@scathach @feld @georgia it is but it's also not one that can really be externally tested which is a really important legal prerequisite in a lot of cases.

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@scathach@stereophonic.space remote

@sun @feld @georgia There is a little bit of research indicating it could be externally tested whether or not someone is trans with fMRI brain scans but last I checked nobody it hasn't been seriously pursued

georgia

@scathach @feld @sun there is also even more compelling overlapping evidence of "gay brain"

Tears for Keirs

@georgia @feld @sun@shitposter.world @scathach the backslide from normie cishet liberals i knew irl in 2019 going "oh i heard trans people have a different shaped brain from the rest of the gender they were born as, that makes sense" and even conversatives agreeing begrudgingly to that to 2020s era "gender is just a feeling" feels so frustrating

georgia

@MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @feld @scathach the idea that gender is just a feeling plays directly into transphobic hands tbh

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@georgia @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @feld @scathach yeah i agree that "gender is a feeling" is reductive and counterproductive but i also think that the neuroscience of gender is kinda dubious , lowkey eugenics-coded , and reinforces the psychiatric-state-industrial complex so i do think that we ought to use something somewhat better . same thing for the "gay brain" . using these things is not conducive to a liberatory biopolitics . my foundational text for this is "American Eugenics" by Nancy Ordover , i highly highly recommend it

Replying to @ikeWren@kill-corporations.enterprises

Tears for Keirs

@ikeWren @feld @georgia @scathach

i routinely get shit for saying there's some scientific basis for a modern day re-evaluation of phrenology. imo regardless of whether or not we want to acknowledge that there's a gay brain and a straight brain based on what political utility it existing would have, there still will be a gay brain and a straight brain

Replies

Replying to @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins@defcon.social

Tears for Keirs

@ikeWren @feld @georgia @scathach i cant find the old thread about this, but like we have enough medical conditions with statistically significant bodily changes associated with them (autism, schizophrenia, toxiplasmosa, etc) that i dont get why people refuse to even be open to the idea

Replying to @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins@defcon.social

georgia

@MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @ikeWren @feld @scathach I really think its mostly the legacy of eugenics that is the concern

Replying to @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins@defcon.social

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@feld@friedcheese.us remote

@MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @feld @georgia @scathach part of the issue is that i just categorically disagree with the idea that there is objectively a gay brain and a straight brain lol , i have not seen any science that is sufficiently convincing to prove this and to my knowledge we have such a poor understanding of what's even going on in there to say that gay and straight cognition and behavior emerge from some preexisting condition of the brain or whether some other shit is going on . maybe im wrong about this and there's some new science about it since then that somehow proves this but it's all very dubious to me

Replying to @ikeWren@kill-corporations.enterprises

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@ikeWren @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @georgia @scathach

> part of the issue is that i just categorically disagree with the idea that there is objectively a gay brain and a straight brain

But why? We accept that brain chemistry/hormone balance does all sorts of things to humans, so why wouldn't this most likely be a significant factor?

Replying to @feld@friedcheese.us

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@feld @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @georgia @scathach i take issue with the idea that there can be some static neural predisposition to complex behaviors like sexuality . shit like emotional dysregulation or sex drive are pretty simple in comparison, but sexual and gender orientation involve a lot of extremely complex social and cultural context and it's not like xyz neurotransmitter can change all that

Replying to @ikeWren@kill-corporations.enterprises

existential threat

@feld @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @georgia @scathach justifying things by their naturalness is stupid and regressive and im tired of pretending that neurological determinism is progressive . it isnt and it never has been just like any kind of determinism . i dont really care if being gay or trans is a choice or not because everyone should be able to choose to Do gay or trans regardless . the glorification of ‘nature’ has nothing to offer us

Replying to @ikeWren@kill-corporations.enterprises

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@MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @feld @georgia @scathach i lost my original point along the way somewhere here but this is ultimately what it's all about anyway

Replying to @ikeWren@kill-corporations.enterprises

Tears for Keirs

@ikeWren @feld @georgia @scathach this is just a woke rework of the homophobic argument about how gay people choose to be gay and could stop if they wanted to, I don't have the choice to not be attracted to men and straight men don't have the choice to be attracted to men.

Literally just a day or two ago Clarence Thomas made the argument that transness is a choice that anyone can make or not make and not an immutable characteristic as justification for stripping trans people of their further rights.

Replying to @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins@defcon.social

Tears for Keirs

@chjara@akko.tuxcrafting.xyz remote

@ikeWren @feld @georgia @scathach tbc I don't think this argument in itself is a good argument for it existing or not, just to make it clear that it's also not a politically progressive stance to take either that anybody can be anything

Replying to @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins@defcon.social

chjara

@MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @ikeWren @feld @georgia @scathach Do we have to chase whatever tiny little speck of statistical evidence there is for innate differences to gotcha transphobes that do not care about the backing or means and only that the maximal number of trans women are murdered?

Replying to @chjara@akko.tuxcrafting.xyz

Tears for Keirs

@feld@friedcheese.us remote

@chjara @feld @ikeWren @georgia @scathach im trying to write drafts for my film thread rn oomf, so not going to continue this for long.

But no, we shouldn't claim things are a certain way for political convenience (regardless of what others' in this thread want to do), scientific studies should go forward, test out what's true and statistically significant or not for the sake of establishing whats most likely true and not and ideology should adapt to reality rather than try to hammer reality into its preferred shape. My point's just that people in this thread aren't just scientifically reactionary but also directly aiding political reactionaries.

Replying to @ikeWren@kill-corporations.enterprises

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@ikeWren @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @georgia @scathach I don't think it's a complex behavior at all. I think some people want to believe it's a complex behavior because it gives them comfort and they're afraid that some day in the future there will be an attempt to medically correct or cure this "unwanted" behavior.

Replying to @feld@friedcheese.us

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@fiore@brain.worm.pink remote

@feld @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @georgia @scathach sexual attraction is known to be extremely complicated (which is why it's STILL being studied after and monosexuality in general relies on layers upon layers of socially constructed systems for its existence to make any sense at all . and yes i am in fact afraid of that happening because it Has Been Happening for the past 150 fucking years and is Continuing To Happen

Replying to @feld@friedcheese.us

@feld @MossGrowsOnNormanRuins @ikeWren @georgia @scathach type of shit that gets u to believe a certain bone structure makes u more prone to “crime” lmao .

Replying to @fiore@brain.worm.pink

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