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12@sun@shitposter.world Where is the source code?
@sun@shitposter.world I spot 20 emdashes in the tiny readme file and you didn't even add the .claude folder to your gitignore.
Also I can't read what license your repo uses without being required to make an account on your forge.
0/10 vibecoded retroslop
@SuperDicq AGPL. you can access it without bullshit via:
rad:z2gAKC6ESt5ZBV419uVPf2vFtEHCT
I use Radicle now because scrapers I have to lock down gitea
rad:z2gAKC6ESt5ZBV419uVPf2vFtEHCT
I use Radicle now because scrapers I have to lock down gitea
@SuperDicq anyway it works really good and the code is clean.
@sun@shitposter.world You honestly even did retroslop wrong because it is a javascript based single page app. The reason people like retroslop is because it was simple and there was no client side code, just pure serverside rendered HTML using something like PHP. This isn't even retroslop it's just aestheticslop.
@SuperDicq it's faster than php
@sun@shitposter.world That's not the point I am trying to make here.
@SuperDicq I understand what you're saying but that's not what I was going for, I made a deliberate choice to do this as a static frontend even if you personally don't like that.
@sun @SuperDicq the point he's trying to make is that you should block him for being insufferable
@lain@lain.com @sun@shitposter.world I'm not very happy with seeing my long term mutuals promote their vibecoded garbage on the timeline. I really don't want to have to block you guys. I want to coonvince you to actually start developing free software again.
@SuperDicq @lain Can you provide me with a checklist of do's and do not's for writing software going forward?
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50@sun@shitposter.world @lain@lain.com The problem is that output from LLMs currently has a legally ambiguous status. You can not risk integrating it into any existing free software right now, so that's why a lot of projects, with some exceptions, choose not to allow it or heavily limit its usage only to specific tasks.
And on a personal note I think obvious LLM output is extremely tasteless. Seeing someone not even use some effort to at least even write their own README file makes me cringe. I always compare it to the same type of feeling you get when you see a corporate logo which uses Comic Sans.
@SuperDicq I think it's a bigger risk if you close source something, I am doing AGPL so like unless it pulled something from some weird license should be okay.
@sun@shitposter.world The risk for free software projects is actually the biggest, proprietary software can not be investigated that easily because their source code is secret.
As much as I appreciate you adding a proper copyleft license for this project, this unfortunately this does not matter much. The risk that your LLM pulls in code from other free software projects with an incompatible license is very minimal.
A much greater risk is that the LLM pulls in code from a proprietary software project. Because guess what? LLMs aren't trained from just from free software repositories obviously. Every person around the world that is using Cursor, Claude, Copilot, Codex, etc. while working on proprietary software projects is feeding their proprietary repositories into their ever growing training data set.
@SuperDicq in the meantime I am marking my completely llm coded projects as being llm-coded so people are informed and can act accordingly
@sun @SuperDicq arcana sends her regards
@SuperDicq @lain @sun Personally, I'd argue that writing READMEs are the most mind-numbingly boring bit of writing software and rather one of the better use cases for an LLM.
@Phobos @lain @SuperDicq I also do admit that there is a systemic issue of what happens to the next generation of programmers who aren’t forced to learn things the hard way like I had to, but for me personally I don’t write any code a machine can now shit out ever again and that’s not actually a problem
@sun @lain @SuperDicq Learning the hard way isn't always necessarily the better way, but yes, I absolutely agree that there's merit to being able to write functional code without fancy tools like LLMs and whatnot. Though I'm not really a good programmer, so whatever I weigh in with here in regards to "how one should do it" would probably just come across as stupid and no one should even care what I say about it.
Overall, the way I got started with C was probably just about the worst way possible, and I would have been better off reading some proper books on it. But I'm incredibly thick when it comes to learning, don't have the patience for it, and oftentimes end up just smashing my head against things until it kinda sorta sticks.
Overall, the way I got started with C was probably just about the worst way possible, and I would have been better off reading some proper books on it. But I'm incredibly thick when it comes to learning, don't have the patience for it, and oftentimes end up just smashing my head against things until it kinda sorta sticks.
@sun @Phobos @SuperDicq @lain I wanna program for fun again* but I don't think I will use LLMs much. We'll see how that goes.
* I've been saying this for a while now but haven't really done anything.
* I've been saying this for a while now but haven't really done anything.
@besserwisser @Phobos @lain @SuperDicq @sun i like to program and i wanna learn because it's nice, so what I do is use the LLM as a tool for learning how to program/solve an issue when programming. When I have an issue I ask it how to fix it by giving it examples of what I've done, and when I know I wanna implement smth but don't know how, I ask it to teach me the best practices or how it is usually done in that program.
@lain @Phobos @SuperDicq @sun @mischievoustomato That's kind of a trap I fear to fall into. Letting the LLM do stuff instead of doing it myself and learn in the process. Also, I don't want to pay for whatever subscription I need to get something decent for a little hobby project and local models are probably gonna be really slow and clunky.
@lain @Phobos @SuperDicq @sun @mischievoustomato *learn nothing in the process
Kinda messed up there. Basically, I fear I won't learn how to program if I don't have to program and with LLMs I can always just let it do the whole thing and learn nothing from it.
Kinda messed up there. Basically, I fear I won't learn how to program if I don't have to program and with LLMs I can always just let it do the whole thing and learn nothing from it.
@besserwisser @Phobos @SuperDicq @sun @mischievoustomato do you fear that you don’t know how the haber-Bosch process works when you’re planting your garden?
@mischievoustomato @Phobos @SuperDicq @besserwisser @sun I heard there’s great documentaries about that all over the net
@lain @Phobos @SuperDicq @sun @mischievoustomato Kind of a weird comparison. The Haber-Bosch process couldn't take over basically every gardening activity I could do. Especially if I just program for fun and maybe to learn something, I don't know why I should use any LLM.
@besserwisser @Phobos @lain @SuperDicq @sun speed. You can learn much faster with LLMs than not. Having to google whatever issue exists pre-LLM era was painful. Oftentimes stuff seemingly didn't have a fix or required obscure """fixing""". Docs aren't usually good or practical. Also for making stuff like test suites or helping you debug stuff when things aren't visibly clear.
@mischievoustomato @Phobos @lain @SuperDicq @sun I don't care much about speed when doing something for fun. When I run into issues, I'll deal with that. Already said in my first post that we'll see how it goes. The whole proselytizing before I even started turns me off LLMs even more tbh.
@besserwisser @Phobos @SuperDicq @sun @mischievoustomato it’s not proselytizing, I’m saying you’re sweeping the floor with a toothbrush
@besserwisser @Phobos @lain @SuperDicq @sun 🤷♂️ i try to give advice on things I've done and tested. Being able to get stuff up quickly and learn was really good. I don't really enjoy programming when I get stuck on a thing for a lot of time without the knowledge or tools to deal with the issue.
@lain @besserwisser @Phobos @SuperDicq @mischievoustomato @sun it's more like learning how to change your oil vs letting the mechanic do it for you
@besserwisser @Phobos @lain @SuperDicq @sun i wonder how could I approach stuff myself. The idea I had of just vibecoding software, using it, and then noting whatever problems or upgrades that could be fixed or implemented could be a way to work, but I don't think I could develop enough differentiating skill to like make myself stand out from others. But there's also the chance that the future will require much more people doign software and knowing how2llm. Computers exist anyway too and a lot of people barely know how to interact with a web browser..
@lain @Phobos @SuperDicq @besserwisser @sun @mischievoustomato You learn barely anything in the process. LLMs are great for newbies to get started and explain stuff as you go. Mostly because you bypass knowledge gatekeepers and nonexistent docs. But if you let it do everything from the start, you won't get that most likely.
In order to use LLMs for "make XYZ, make no mistakes or you go to jail", you have to know how things are supposed to look and work to at least tell it to fixup what it did wrong. And you won't have that experience if you don't have at least some background.
GitHub is a great example when you let everyone aislop a site with barely any experience when most of the original devs left. It's basically unusable now, even if you ignore the frequent downtime. Back navigation half works, switching issues/PRs/code tabs does not work most of the time,...
@phnt @Phobos @lain @SuperDicq @besserwisser @sun i've been lucky to not experience the issues with GH
@mischievoustomato@tsundere.love @phnt@fluffytail.org @Phobos@eientei.org @lain@lain.com @besserwisser@shitposter.world @sun@shitposter.world It's easy to avoid Github issues by not using Github.
@SuperDicq @lain @sun @besserwisser @mischievoustomato @Phobos Yeah, you should use Codeberg that instead. Surely that won't backfire.
@phnt@fluffytail.org @lain@lain.com @sun@shitposter.world @besserwisser@shitposter.world @mischievoustomato@tsundere.love @Phobos@eientei.org Codeberg has got some weirdo policies right now, so I can't fully recommend it. But overal I think the Forejo software is decent at least.
@lain @Phobos @SuperDicq @besserwisser @mischievoustomato @sun Kinda like how cheating at tests doesn't help your learn. It's just a bypass for a broken school system that punishes any mistakes.
Making the little cheat sheets helps with learning though.
@phnt@fluffytail.org @lain@lain.com @Phobos@eientei.org @besserwisser@shitposter.world @mischievoustomato@tsundere.love @sun@shitposter.world I didn't care about school at all and I'm not gonna lie if I was still in school today I would also use LLMs to skip everything.
@mischievoustomato@tsundere.love @lain@lain.com @phnt@fluffytail.org @sun@shitposter.world @besserwisser@shitposter.world @Phobos@eientei.org I wonder if my bachelors is gonna worth more because I finished my degree in a time where LLMs didn't exist yet.
@phnt @Phobos @lain @SuperDicq @besserwisser @sun @mischievoustomato
A lot of what you get out of it is your mindset. If youre mindset is "ima have write all the shit" then yeah its gonna be a crutch
But if you really only care to use it as a tool or an assistant or an ideas generator its alright.
I will say its pretty useful for getting started on implementing something that you dont necessarily know where to start. For instance I had some bug with image rendering on my one project and I didn't really know how to approach actually implementing the change. I asked the demon machine and it got me enough of a start to realize that the overall fix wasnt that hard so I just went and made the change myself
A lot of what you get out of it is your mindset. If youre mindset is "ima have write all the shit" then yeah its gonna be a crutch
But if you really only care to use it as a tool or an assistant or an ideas generator its alright.
I will say its pretty useful for getting started on implementing something that you dont necessarily know where to start. For instance I had some bug with image rendering on my one project and I didn't really know how to approach actually implementing the change. I asked the demon machine and it got me enough of a start to realize that the overall fix wasnt that hard so I just went and made the change myself
@besserwisser @Phobos @lain @SuperDicq @sun The stuff I have it do for myself that wasn't for university or one off stuff I did because I needed the thing quickly. When I had the time, I reimplemented the thing for myself in an actual language, and the result was so good! And the LLM helped me learn/grasp the language better.
@besserwisser @Phobos @SuperDicq @lain @sun also, lain is part of the people that have developed extensively already. Seniors seem to have more fun now using LLMs to write code because they can just act as reviewers in case stuff goes wrong. Their effort spent goes down considerably.
@besserwisser @Phobos @lain @SuperDicq @sun @mischievoustomato I've been using Kagi Assistant with either GLM or Kimi. Barely use half the monthly quota anyway.
But if you don't use Kagi already, maybe getting something more than a webpage chat is better.
@mischievoustomato@tsundere.love @besserwisser@shitposter.world @Phobos@eientei.org @lain@lain.com @sun@shitposter.world Except it is usually not a very good teacher except for really basic stuff because it does almost everything wrong.
@mischievoustomato@tsundere.love @lain@lain.com @sun@shitposter.world @besserwisser@shitposter.world @Phobos@eientei.org It's 2026, LLMs are totally good now guys! It never ever would do anything wrong!
@SuperDicq @lain @sun @besserwisser @mischievoustomato @Phobos It's 2026, programmers are totally good now. They can never do anything wrong after they've been programming since the 70's.
@Phobos@eientei.org @lain@lain.com @sun@shitposter.world I really enjoy writing READMEs actually. It is like the one thing of your program that almost every user will see. Most people may never look at the code, but almost everyone will look at the README.
@SuperDicq @lain @sun I'm probably incredibly weird in that regard, as I enjoy writing in general, having written a number of short stories in my free time--nothing near actually worth anyone's time, but still. And yet I find writing documentation of any kind, even short READMEs, very much boring.
@Phobos@eientei.org @lain@lain.com @sun@shitposter.world Whenever I'm working on a project for a really long time I really look forward to writing the README because writing a README is like finally being able to tell the rest of your world about the thing you made.
@SuperDicq @lain @sun And I really, really appreciate people like you who bother writing good documentation for projects. Yet I would probably need someone to physically hold a literal gun against my head before I sat down and spent more than like two minutes on doing it.
@Phobos@eientei.org @lain@lain.com @sun@shitposter.world I do want to say I am also the particular kind of autist who enjoys editing wikipedia as well.
I like to argue that documentation is more important than the actual code often, because without proper documentation nobody knows how to use it. There's probably many software projects out there being really underappreciated simply because they lack proper documentation.
@SuperDicq @lain @Phobos editing wikipedia was fun in 2001, now it's run by insufferable faggots (bad kind) that love to argue