the small shiver of disgust every time i hear the word 'content'
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@lain Still have no idea what Evan of SWF meant by "creator content" lacking on fedi.
@phnt i think they really just mean "we want egirls on here with a million followers" and i guess, yeah ok, but why? as bao said, the fediverse successfully kept normie npcs away by having two @s instead of one.
i think that's one of the fundmental split personality issues in the fediverse. people say they don't want normies on here, but they also say that normies are retarded for not coming here because it's clearly objectively better. it's either / or. is this a secret club or is this a 200 million user network?
i think that's one of the fundmental split personality issues in the fediverse. people say they don't want normies on here, but they also say that normies are retarded for not coming here because it's clearly objectively better. it's either / or. is this a secret club or is this a 200 million user network?
@lain @phnt
artificial virality and fake trend manipulation are how a subset of creators make a ton of money on centralized platforms. thinking you could be recipient of that drives a bunch of the lesser creators who toil on the edge of quitting. the platform shapes the output completely for its profit. we don't have that mechanism so why would a creator come here instead. every time they try they find out their organic audience is a lot smaller.
artificial virality and fake trend manipulation are how a subset of creators make a ton of money on centralized platforms. thinking you could be recipient of that drives a bunch of the lesser creators who toil on the edge of quitting. the platform shapes the output completely for its profit. we don't have that mechanism so why would a creator come here instead. every time they try they find out their organic audience is a lot smaller.
@sun @phnt i think that's a sort of adversarial framing already, tons of people have millions of real fans and real communities that care about them. why would they switch to a network that's hostile to them? and if you tell people 'well the advantage of this vs twitter is that nobody you care about is here, but you can run your own server with zero users', that's a hard sell as well.
coming back to bao, she wrote that the fediverse is 'just twitter', and i think she's very wrong about that. not even pleroma is 'just mastodon'. i can detect the software of the user on the other end of a fedi thread with high certainty just from their posting style. all these seemingly inconsequential technological and sociological differences create different communities and we should probably not try to social engineer them too much.
i think we should keep building, but i don't think we should keep building for audiences that don't want to be here and that we don't want here. and i think we should completely ignore all foundations, standards bodies and other weirdo commies who want to steal our precious bodily fluids
coming back to bao, she wrote that the fediverse is 'just twitter', and i think she's very wrong about that. not even pleroma is 'just mastodon'. i can detect the software of the user on the other end of a fedi thread with high certainty just from their posting style. all these seemingly inconsequential technological and sociological differences create different communities and we should probably not try to social engineer them too much.
i think we should keep building, but i don't think we should keep building for audiences that don't want to be here and that we don't want here. and i think we should completely ignore all foundations, standards bodies and other weirdo commies who want to steal our precious bodily fluids
@lain @phnt they have real fans but the platform is actually a star maker system whether or not you deserved that audience. it works the other way too, if you use youtube and you rack up a million subscribers but they don't like you, they'll just suppress your trending and won't show your video popping up even to your subscribers. my point is its all fucking fake. its not fake here but its a hard sell for creators that are benefiting from the fakeness which is every creator you've heard of
@sun @lain Mastodon has trending hashtags, but I think they are network wide, for the "known network" of that instance. Hashtags could have been really great for trending and tagging posts, but Mastodon ruined it by making the search utterly unusable. Ideally there would also be "local trending tags" and "global trending tags", so an instance has more of a community feeling besides it just being a way to communicate with the whole network. The "instance" being a generic thing instead of a community building block hurts this network I think.
@i @lain @sun I fundamentally disagree with how groups currently work and it's probably a good idea barely anybody knows that Pleroma has them. They are a prime target for uncontrollable spam. Kinda like relays, but the effects can get delivered directly to a user's sometimes even home timelines.
If I were to design groups for AP, I would make a Group Actor with a posts OrderedCollection and a list of Actors who can manually Add and Remove Objects to the Collection. With the ability to set certain instances/Actors as automatic approval. You POST to an inbox, if you are in the auto approve list, the instance automatically adds that Object to the Collection. You aren't in the auto approve list, you get put in a mod queue. Viewing that group would be simply fetching the first X number of pages/posts in it, which can remote instances keep in some cache.
If I were to design groups for AP, I would make a Group Actor with a posts OrderedCollection and a list of Actors who can manually Add and Remove Objects to the Collection. With the ability to set certain instances/Actors as automatic approval. You POST to an inbox, if you are in the auto approve list, the instance automatically adds that Object to the Collection. You aren't in the auto approve list, you get put in a mod queue. Viewing that group would be simply fetching the first X number of pages/posts in it, which can remote instances keep in some cache.
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@i @lain @sun Here's even a use case for the outbox: The Group Actors outbox has Add/Remove to it's own OrderedCollection to indicate moderation decisions for that Group.
Because if something should be removed and the instances of the admin making that decision and the receivers aren't in a follow relationship, how else would you federate removal of posts from the Collection without re-fetching it.
Because if something should be removed and the instances of the admin making that decision and the receivers aren't in a follow relationship, how else would you federate removal of posts from the Collection without re-fetching it.
@phnt @i @lain @sun honk understand pleroma chats tho. I don't think we should cooperate, mastodon sure won't support jack shit (see: emoji reacts); lemmy/peertube/writeas have completely different use case, gotosocial/iceshrimp etc lack features that need to be implemented first; misskey just like mastodon, live in their own to timezone (don't support multiple emoji reacts per user) + language barrier.
We can spend years deliberating how to do the thing and waiting for others to cooperate or we could do some basic MVP, iterate on it and hope others will follow suit.
I don't think Pleroma Chats are bad, they are just underimplemented and lack groupchat support because no groups I guess.
We can spend years deliberating how to do the thing and waiting for others to cooperate or we could do some basic MVP, iterate on it and hope others will follow suit.
I don't think Pleroma Chats are bad, they are just underimplemented and lack groupchat support because no groups I guess.
@hj @i @lain @sun I disagree.
Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.
This mentality is how we got to the point where there are 3 different ways to federate emoji reactions (Pleroma EmojiReact, Misskey's _misskey-emoji and someone else already did Like with an emoji field in JSON). Same issue with quotes, Akkoma/Pleroma quoteURI, Misskey _misskey-quote and now Mastodon's Quote Activity. How did we get here, nothing was ever documented and no specification how it works written so someone that lived in the Mastodon vacuum had no idea that Pleroma does EmojiReact.
That's the whole point of FEPs. It's a place for discussion about AP extensions for people that care. There's no process to get in besides write a spec and implement later. If we want to fix this messed protocol and do it properly, collaboratively, and not waster our time, this is the way to go. It doesn't have take years, because the window for a FEP to be "finalized" is a year after the last update or there abouts. It won't take literal years.
I don't think Pleroma Chats are dead, nor do I think they are bad, but there is no documentation on how they are supposed to work in AP, so very few implemented them. And how will you notify others that they exist if not by making a FEP and a somewhat high frequency issue tracker and announce them on activitypub.rocks.
cc @silverpill just because I've seen you talk about how good groups could work and I think my post above isn't completely stupid. And also sice FEPs got mentioned.
Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.
This mentality is how we got to the point where there are 3 different ways to federate emoji reactions (Pleroma EmojiReact, Misskey's _misskey-emoji and someone else already did Like with an emoji field in JSON). Same issue with quotes, Akkoma/Pleroma quoteURI, Misskey _misskey-quote and now Mastodon's Quote Activity. How did we get here, nothing was ever documented and no specification how it works written so someone that lived in the Mastodon vacuum had no idea that Pleroma does EmojiReact.
That's the whole point of FEPs. It's a place for discussion about AP extensions for people that care. There's no process to get in besides write a spec and implement later. If we want to fix this messed protocol and do it properly, collaboratively, and not waster our time, this is the way to go. It doesn't have take years, because the window for a FEP to be "finalized" is a year after the last update or there abouts. It won't take literal years.
I don't think Pleroma Chats are dead, nor do I think they are bad, but there is no documentation on how they are supposed to work in AP, so very few implemented them. And how will you notify others that they exist if not by making a FEP and a somewhat high frequency issue tracker and announce them on activitypub.rocks.
cc @silverpill just because I've seen you talk about how good groups could work and I think my post above isn't completely stupid. And also sice FEPs got mentioned.
@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @hj I thought FEPs was servers implementing things and then telling you in a document how you did it, for example Smithereen has a mechanism for doing a myspace-style wall. It's not great and I'll be doing it in a different way completely if I ever do it for egregoros (but will be following a different better fep like public-appended collections)
@sun @i @lain @silverpill @hj They way I've seen them work is that you have a draft spec, a draft implementation and publish that as a draft. If someone is interested, they will comment on it and eventually a discussion will form about how it should be done. Basically W3C that isn't gatekeeping everyone and isn't actively hostile.
You can do it by implementing first, publishing later but then you are in the same place in my first two paragraphs. You failed to force it on everyone and someone doesn't like it? They will write their own FEP and now you are in the same mess like before. Competing over the same thing, because you didn't talk before.
You can do it by implementing first, publishing later but then you are in the same place in my first two paragraphs. You failed to force it on everyone and someone doesn't like it? They will write their own FEP and now you are in the same mess like before. Competing over the same thing, because you didn't talk before.
@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun I don't see much wrong with many ways of implementing emoji reacts, fedi is chaotic by nature. It's more effective to negotiate between willing parties on adhoc basis than make a standard to account for unwilling parties.
@hj @i @phnt @lain @silverpill I'm almost blackpilled on cooperation after seeing the discussions on that activitypub forum tbh. I think moxie was right about federated protocols also tho, I mean look around
@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun And how will you discover willing parties that want to cooperate? Or how will they discover you? You don't have to account for unwilling parties since they weren't part of the writing process. It isn't a standard, it is called a proposal for a reason.
@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun I'll discover them on fediverse. Every proposal needs something to back up, otherwise it's pure speculation. Implement groups - see results, propose it as standard - adjust as discussion goes or trash it in favour of another.
It's like "hypothetically if we had a public transport submarines what speed limit on them should be?" Well just make the damn submarine first then we can talk speed limits.
It's like "hypothetically if we had a public transport submarines what speed limit on them should be?" Well just make the damn submarine first then we can talk speed limits.
@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun
>Every proposal needs something to back up, otherwise it's pure speculation. Implement groups - see results, propose it as standard - adjust as discussion goes or trash it in favour of another.
You've just described FEPs.
>Every proposal needs something to back up, otherwise it's pure speculation. Implement groups - see results, propose it as standard - adjust as discussion goes or trash it in favour of another.
You've just described FEPs.
@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun
1. I just thought how groups could work better literally in this thread
2. There are more pressing issue to resolve than reimplement Groups at least for me (like install docs being largely broken, still no substitute for OTP releases, releases CI still not rewritten, BBCode parser having a bug that annoys me greatly)
3. Not enough time and motivation at least from my part
1. I just thought how groups could work better literally in this thread
2. There are more pressing issue to resolve than reimplement Groups at least for me (like install docs being largely broken, still no substitute for OTP releases, releases CI still not rewritten, BBCode parser having a bug that annoys me greatly)
3. Not enough time and motivation at least from my part
@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun I agree that these are dark times with our CI fucking dying, but sometimes you just have sit down and implement shit despite all odds. I'm literally doing this with sync config rn. If you need monetary motivation we can adjust nlnet grant targets to implement groups.
@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun Look at my PR for that in the FE and see if I didn't miss something or you want something else. There's also the issue/PR template PR that you can look at and merge. I'm not merging anything into FE on my own.
@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun You don't see much wrong with that many ways of doing the same thing, because you don't have to deal with it. Do you think it's great to write 4 different ways to normalize one thing from multiple ways it has been done.
Look at Pleroma's Transmogrifier if you want to see the shear amount of stupidity on this network.
Look at Pleroma's Transmogrifier if you want to see the shear amount of stupidity on this network.
@hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun Every few months there's some stupid new way I find someone has done the same thing on this network that it honestly angers me.
@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @hj there was already a way to do federated badges before I implemented it for egregoros but the way it was done before was bad and I did it right. I want to believe this is different than usually someone does it bad and then someone else also just does it bad in a different way because they just plain don't care. I considered, then rejected the previous implementation (mine are 100% compatible with the w3c spec for openbadges while the previous one was hacked up partial compat with the old open badges spec and mutilated to make mastodon happy)
@sun @i @lain @silverpill @hj I mostly meant stuff like this: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7821
this: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7771
and this: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7781
Only the last one is technically non-AP compliant.
this: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7771
and this: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7781
Only the last one is technically non-AP compliant.
@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @sun I don't have to look. PleromaFE still has compatibility layer for MastoAPI and it still "supports" QvitterAPI. PleromaFE has to account for multitude of browsers including shits like Safari and Palemoon. PleromaFE supports Themes v1, v2 and v3 without major breakage. We have account for different versions of PleromaBE and different configurations, and now that I'm implementing Synchronised Settings I have to migrate settings from unsynchronised ones.
Also I voluntarily support IceShrimp and Akkoma backends for PleromaFE since akkomacels won't pull in frontend changes and iceshrimp just because I can. One day PleromaFE will support Mastodon backend, too.
Also I voluntarily support IceShrimp and Akkoma backends for PleromaFE since akkomacels won't pull in frontend changes and iceshrimp just because I can. One day PleromaFE will support Mastodon backend, too.
@hj@shigusegubu.club @phnt@fluffytail.org @i@declin.eu @lain@lain.com @silverpill@mitra.social @sun@shitposter.world >PleromaFE has to account for multitude of browsers including shits like Safari and Palemoon
i dont think palemoon has worked with pleroma in months tho?
@lolitechengineer @lain @phnt @silverpill @i @sun no one reported it so I didn't fix it, I guess now that I'm aware of it I'll fix it.
@phnt @i @lain @hj @sun I think you're right about FEPs and cooperation. The optimal strategy is cooperate by default and defect only when the other side defects.
With quotes we were almost successful. The initial version of Mastodon's consent-respecting quotes was based on FEP-e232, but later they decided to introduce a new property.
Now there's FEP-521a (public keys), which they expressed interest in implementing.
Even with Mastodon, it's worth trying.
>Groups
I think Lemmy's implementation is not bad. There is also Conversation Containers from Hubzillaverse, and a possibility of convergence, see this thread https://lemmy.ml/post/43519233
@silverpill @i @lain @hj @sun
Amazing...
Amazing...
20:59:41.304 [error] Could not decode user at fetch https://lemmy.ml/post/43519233, {:cross_domain_redirect, true}Thanks, I'll look into it later.
20:59:41.430 [error] Object rejected while fetching https://lemmy.ml/post/43519233 {:fetch, {:error, {:cross_domain_redirect, true}}}
@phnt @i @lain @silverpill @hj @sun
> Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.
oh yes the FEPs, that's much better. Where cooperation == "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway".
Before: Mastodon forces it on everyone through shear number of users
Now: Mastodon pretends to cooperate with the FEP process, and then essentially has veto power so they force it on everyone through shear number of users.
Like their Quote Posts. Do you think if Pleroma, Akkoma, and Honk showed up in the FEP process and said "this is terrible, you shouldn't do quote posts this way and you especially should not be trying to design features at the federation level that limit/restrict interactions to posts because it's an honor system and won't work anyway", that they'd have listened? Three votes from three stakeholders in the fediverse mean nothing when we don't have the userbase size of Mastodon.
At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.
> Look, Pleroma is in no position to bake a feature, and say "take it, or leave it" and expect everyone interested to take it, or pull a Mastodon and force it on everyone through, the shear number of users. If you want to do groups properly, for which there is interest in the FEP community and also in the Mastodon community which used guppe quite a lot. I think it would best not to half-ass it and deal with the consequences later.
oh yes the FEPs, that's much better. Where cooperation == "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway".
Before: Mastodon forces it on everyone through shear number of users
Now: Mastodon pretends to cooperate with the FEP process, and then essentially has veto power so they force it on everyone through shear number of users.
Like their Quote Posts. Do you think if Pleroma, Akkoma, and Honk showed up in the FEP process and said "this is terrible, you shouldn't do quote posts this way and you especially should not be trying to design features at the federation level that limit/restrict interactions to posts because it's an honor system and won't work anyway", that they'd have listened? Three votes from three stakeholders in the fediverse mean nothing when we don't have the userbase size of Mastodon.
At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.
@feld @i @lain @hj @sun It doesn't mater that Mastodon didn't take our solution, when we got others interested in it to implement it. There's Mitra, Lemmy, Hollo, NodeBB, Wafrn and many more you can cooperate with, fediverse is not just Mastodon. Friendica even has some ad-hoc groups I think that work slightly like GS and they could benefit from that if they get involved and make them interoperable with others based on some discussion and consensus.
You don't have to explicitly cooperate with Mastodon even in the case of groups or relayed tags, since if Mastodon users get a wind of this feature and they end up liking it, there's more chance that it will get at least implemented in something like Glitch-soc. Throwing the towel early on everyone doesn't help I think.
You don't have to explicitly cooperate with Mastodon even in the case of groups or relayed tags, since if Mastodon users get a wind of this feature and they end up liking it, there's more chance that it will get at least implemented in something like Glitch-soc. Throwing the towel early on everyone doesn't help I think.
@feld @phnt @hj @i @lain @silverpill @sun
> "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway"
This is in your head. You can just ignore Mastodon.
> At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.
Friendicazillahub is doing fine, last I heard. It's good to stay compatible but letting Mastodon shit on fedi hasn't done fedi any good: it just ensures that Mastodon continues to do whatever they want with no pushback.
> "discuss things to death, and then Mastodon ends up controlling the outcome anyway"
This is in your head. You can just ignore Mastodon.
> At this point we either seize our own destiny or accept our fate as shit on the boots of Mastodon.
Friendicazillahub is doing fine, last I heard. It's good to stay compatible but letting Mastodon shit on fedi hasn't done fedi any good: it just ensures that Mastodon continues to do whatever they want with no pushback.
@p @i @phnt @feld @lain @silverpill @hj @sun Misskey is just as opinionated as Mastodon but no one complains about Misskey; or, well, if there's reason to complain about Misskey the American Misskey users tend to create a solution, then syuilo either adapts it or doesn't, but Misskey doesn't direct activitypub with their decisions; they only direct Misskey.
@vii @feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill @sun The only solution is to just hack as needed and rant in the comments.
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@sun @i @vii @feld @p @lain @silverpill @hj Yeah, Misskey tends to do their own dumb ways and everyone else needs to normalize it. Perfect examples of that are `isCat`, the profile decorations and having no idea what "context" is for in ActivityPub. Syuilo usually does things in absolutely non-ActivityPub ways.
@sun @vii @feld @hj @i @lain @phnt @silverpill Well, yeah, media.fse currently returns a 429 with the text "TELL SYUILO TO FIX HIS SHIT" and they way they did quote-posts is worse than any other proposed version but the current Pleroma one doesn't even put the link in the body so there's no graceful degradation.