Egregoros · Phoenix Framework

Post

Remote status

Context

Caleb James DeLisle

SLUFI is published!

https://thegoodwork.substack.com/p/slufi

A Simple, Lightweight, Unopinionated, Federation Interconnect.

The problem: While numerous network transports exist (cjdns, Yggdrasil, I2P, Tor, etc), and numerous name services exist (Namecoin, ENS, Unstoppable Domains, PKT, etc), almost all federation takes place over ICANN+IP because we currently have no way to federate across network boundaries, and ICANN+IP is the only thing that everybody has.

I claim that there is no possible solution SIMPLER than SLUFI, except with central authority or PRECIPITOUS loss of security. Furthermore, I claim there is no possible solution that is more secure than SLUFI, except with something like a blockchain and a PRECIPITOUS loss of simplicity.

So while I do not think this protocol is complete (yet), I do think SLUFI is the only realistic starting point for reaching a solution to this problem.

Tagging some people who might be interested:
@sun
@lain
@p
@mint
@jaff
@silverpill

I probably forgot a bunch of very important people, apologies in advance...

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

@i@declin.eu remote

@cjd @p @lain @silverpill @jaff @mint @sun reads like slop no one would ever bother implementing, simpler is making objects portable and fixing the existing relays to carry them, revolver (never ever) fixes this

Replies

Replying to @i@declin.eu

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote

If you're making objects portable, then what are names going to look like? Everything is just a key in a flat namespace like Nostr?

You're welcome to think that nobody is going to implement this, for my part I think that nobody is going to ENABLE that, because they don't want the spam and abuse.

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

@i@declin.eu remote

@cjd @p @lain @silverpill @jaff @mint @sun have users announce their own actor object every so often, every overlay listed could already sign the users domain through ed25519, fedi is simply not interesting enough for spam and abuse, or else we'd see a whole lot more of it, not like it's not trivial as it is already

Replying to @i@declin.eu

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote

The "F" in SLUFI stands for "Federated", and federated means there are users who exist on servers, like Matrix and SMTP.

What you're talking about is P2P, not federated, like Bitcoin and Nostr.

I claim that cross-network *federation* is worth working on, and that's what SLUFI is about.

If you think that the fedi needs to move to a P2P model like Nostr, I don't think you're gonna get traction, but that's fine, we can agree to disagree. You're arguing with me when you should be lobbying the people who need to be convinced that P2P is better than federated...

Replying to @i@declin.eu

rees

@rees@tsundere.love remote

@i @p @lain @silverpill @jaff @cjd @mint @sun >fedi is simply not interesting enough for spam and abuse
it doesn't matter if it's interesting enough with more time that goes on more LLMs will come online, users will have chips in their phones capable of running them. eventually fedi won't even be able to work as intended because one bad actor decided to send an agent swarm to attack every instance's security, co-mingle with fedizens to prevent discourse, and autonomously OSINT users to dox them

Replying to @rees@tsundere.love

@i@declin.eu remote

@rees @p @lain @silverpill @jaff @cjd @mint @sun

Replying to @rees@tsundere.love

Phantasm (away)

@phnt@fluffytail.org remote

@rees @i @p @lain @silverpill @jaff @cjd @mint @sun
>and autonomously OSINT users to dox them

Everybody that runs an instance on a domain is autodoxed by default, or gets their domain confiscated with a single admission and email to their registrar/icann. Your other option is Njalla with TOS that says updating your server behind the domain is against TOS.

And both can be completely mitigated by running an onionsite or eepsite.
anime-nothing-happened.jpg

Replying to @phnt@fluffytail.org

silverpill

@silverpill@mitra.social remote

@phnt @i @p @lain @jaff @cjd @mint @sun @rees

Your other option is Njalla with TOS that says updating your server behind the domain is against TOS.

Whaaat?

I use Njalla btw.

Replying to @silverpill@mitra.social

Phantasm (away)

@phnt@fluffytail.org remote

@silverpill @i @p @lain @jaff @cjd @mint @sun @rees If you interpret the highlighted text in the attached pic to the maximum possible extent, which it would be in case of a dispute, making multiple requests from a server behind that domain breaks that clause. And since even updating an OS creates multiple requests a second, that also falls into that. And guess what every fedi server does. ("Service" includes domain hosting.)

I think it's there to just allow quick removal of domains they don't like, which has happened in the past (notice the ", or that" after multiple requests). They just drop domains without a word and tell you to pound sand when you notice.

https://njal.la/tos/
image.png

Replying to @phnt@fluffytail.org

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote

Do they even have your identity on file? If they don't know who you are, you CAN'T dispute because they can say "prove you have standing" and you can't...

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Phantasm (away)

@phnt@fluffytail.org remote

@cjd @i @p @lain @silverpill @jaff @mint @sun @rees That's the thing, they don't. All they have is an email I think (never tried to register with them). They are the registrant of the domain, their name is in whois, but they act like the middleman and that you are the "owner" of the domain in the TOS.

Replying to @phnt@fluffytail.org

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote

Yeah so I'm pretty sure that their real TOS is "don't piss us off" and their "TOS" is actually a guideline for how to not piss them off...

Replying to @i@declin.eu

pistolero

@p@fsebugoutzone.org remote

@i @cjd @jaff @lain @mint @silverpill @sun

>fedi is simply not interesting enough for spam and abuse

This is incorrect. I have had to remove so many "buy meth/girls/medical supplies like oxygen tanks for some reason/etc." accounts from FSE. There's also funding to rein it in: https://fsebugoutzone.org/objects/55b92e72-d82f-4e9c-a730-34d09d071a99

Replying to @p@fsebugoutzone.org

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote

It doesn't even have to be a *serious* issue to cause everybody to just knee-jerk an turn it off instantly. Look at how heavily blocked the Nostr bridges are.

A flat namespace of keys rather than a moderation hierarchy - a lot of instances will never ever ever allow that.

Even with SLUFI, I expect it's gonna be a big uphill battle to convince admins not to just disable it instantly, and even so, there's probably gonna be a lot of bans on *.onion and *.i2p...

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote

Name services like Namecoin, ENS, PKT, ... are going to be useful here because getting a domain on them costs *something*, so it's sorta kinda like a 1$ ICANN domain, and that's gonna slow down the spam to something similar to what the fedi is familiar with.

And the name service / transport split means someone can register a .bit and CNAME it to their .onion and that will work.