Egregoros

@hazlin @gabriel why can't people understand that the cytokine response from the vaccine would likely have produced the same response from the real virus and these people would have been harmed the same way from their own immune system anyway? In fact, the data says it would have been worse for them because the real infection comes with inflammation and other issues beyond just the cytokine response.

So the vaccine didn't trigger some magical behavior that the virus cannot. We know what it did, and we know the virus does to people with these immune systems too. The odds are that the vaccine have been less severe for these people.

It sucks. Their immunological response went crazy and we didn't have a way to deal with it. This is something we need to figure out for any novel virus like this -- some way to get the desired immunity while tempering the cytokine response. I don't think we have the tools to do so.

These people were likely doomed unless they could somehow completely avoid ever being exposed to the virus.

@feld

These people were likely doomed unless they could somehow completely avoid ever being exposed to the virus.

This is such a weird assertion when the vaccine was rolled out a whole year after the virus and basically all the "essential workers" still had regular contact with the public. Nobody tested for this but I would bet money many people hurt by the shots would show evidence of having at least a variant in their system.

Unless we're believing that SARS-COV-2 is somehow magic and didn't actually do anything until late 2021.
@hazlin

@feld
Correlation isn't causation and all that.
One of the signs the data was cooked was that the data also showed that the shot reduced literally every kind of death (including accidents and murder) which basically means some "healthy user bias" is baked in at minimum.

Also, how many shots just one or the whole recommended schedule? Cause that matters too.

But all that is irrelevant because you're asserting that for every case the virus must be more lethal than the shot and that doesn't account for a great many things. At minimum I think it's basically impossible for a vast majority of people to not have caught a virus/variant by 2021 given how lockdowns were actually done even here in Ontario, which was one of the more serious jurisdictions.

Some go as far as to argue the whole virus was a charade. In hindsight it's actually pretty hard to rule that out when you consider the fact that the data is making that assertion.

@hazlin

@gabriel @hazlin

> data also showed that the shot reduced literally every kind of death (including accidents and murder) which basically means some "healthy user bias" is baked in at minimum.

Obviously that's just the result of humans being in lockdowns really. Hard to have accidents when there's nowhere to drive, etc, hard to murder people who aren't at the local In-N-Out drive thru, etc etc lol so yeah that's weird and dumb, agreed

> But all that is irrelevant because you're asserting that for every case the virus must be more lethal than the shot and that doesn't account for a great many things.

It accounts for a lot, actually. The real disease comes with systemic inflammation and a many other things that the vaccine cannot cause. That's why we know it to be less harmful than the actual virus.

> Some go as far as to argue the whole virus was a charade. In hindsight it's actually pretty hard to rule that out when you consider the fact that the data is making that assertion.

What data?