Egregoros

4d

@cjd Yes. In the U.S., patenting is expensive, but cheaper for independent inventors. Patent Agents are cheaper than Patent Attorneys.

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Rose

4d

@cjd And don't go for businesses that claim to do the whole process for you. They're scams. Due diligence is required, as with anything.

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Rose

4d

@cjd The very first thing to do is start with a Patent Search to see if it will fly.

Replying to @Yo@noauthority.social

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

The general idea is that the propeller blades are held *loosely* - and this has been approached in the past, there are patents going back to the 1940s. In fact modern drone blades are loosely held on hinges. The centrifugal force is enough that you don't need to hold tightly and not doing so eliminates a bunch of forces that you really don't want.

My precise structure is probably novel enough to be able to patent. If I were to patent it, my strategy would be to give it away to home builders / non-commercial and license it to anyone building an SLSA - and the license would come with test data that is collected on the hub.

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

I don't think it would have to be super-secretive, because I don't think I can get a patent on the general concept, but rather one precise design trick that makes it a bit easier, stronger, and more compact.

And it's not that someone couldn't go around it, but rather that this is something I'd give away the CNC codes to amateurs and non-commercial users, but license it to people who want to build light aircraft using it. And I'd have to do some testing so then the test results would be something that comes with the patent license.

And if someone wants to change the design a bit and make their own, they can, but they forego the ecosystem.

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

That's a bit of a challenge because then I need an aircraft - at least an RC... But that would be fun because it would give me a business justification to have one...

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

I have so much head-noise, but this particular thing is one of those cases where I'm like "oh shit everyone is doing this wrong"

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Cliff "It Never Happened" Secord 🇺🇸🇦🇹

4d

>In fact modern drone blades are loosely held on hinges. The centrifugal force is enough that you don't need to hold tightly and not doing so eliminates a bunch of forces that you really don't want.

Small UAS prop blades are not articulated in any form, nor is it necessary due to their inherent low MMOI.

This said, you are correct in your assertion that rotor articulation, which is a standard feature on countless rotorcraft currently flying, allows the individual blades to droop, flap, lead & lag as needed to cancel out the insane centrifugal, centrepedal, gyroscopic & aerodynamic forces at play.

Unique rotorcraft, such as the V-22 Osprey, have a semi-hingeless system that, in the absence of the ability to lead or lag its blades as needed, compensate for that in the form of pendulum weights. The system can still droop & flap as required.

Other rotorcraft like the Bell 525 or the Sikorsky S-70/S-92 et al, use both full articulation and bifilar pendulum weights to cancel forces and assure a smooth ride.

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Cliff "It Never Happened" Secord 🇺🇸🇦🇹

4d

Be sure to read "Helicopter Theory" by Wayne Johnson. There you will get great insights on refining your concept and dynamic scaling for any modeling work you intend to do.

Additionally, you can also validate the aerodynamic modeling of your rotor in QBlade (open source).

Replying to @CliffSecord@nicecrew.digital

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

I'm not a aerodynamics guy, I'm a machinist (well, these days I'm a programmer, but I did have 4 years of it). So I'll just take the blade off of a ground adjustable prop and clamp them in. Then all I need to care about is balance, soundness, and making sure my joints don't max out their travel.

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Rose

4d

@cjd When you know, you know. 😆 I live by it. Nary a soul can convince me otherwise.

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Caleb James DeLisle

@Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com remote

4d

Alright Cliff, here's my pitch, tell me what you think:
* You're making an SLSA and you've decided it's time to go proprietary engine route (lets imagine)
* I have a hub that will clamp existing ground-adjustable prop blades and all you need to adjust them is to wire up a brush to get power down the prop shaft to a servo motor in the spinner.
* You can get this thing made at PCBWay, it's just CNC lathe and milling work, every shop knows how to do this.
* It uses ball joints so basically all of the load is centrifugal. My invention is the way to pitch the blades while they're being held in ball joints.
* EAB and non-commercial gets CNC codes for free, anyone selling the hub to the public can license it for 20% of their sale price, if you're selling it as part of your plane, you pay $100 per unit. With the license you get all of the test results that I have, so you have a head start to your MOSAIC documentation.

Does this sound attractive?

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

GNU/翠星石

4d

@cjd @Zeb @CliffSecord You want to extort me by that amount?

Get drone striked.

Replying to @Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

Every commie eventually does the meme.

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Cliff "It Never Happened" Secord 🇺🇸🇦🇹

4d

Why do you need to articulate an LSA-class propeller? There is no need to. With as low an MMOI they have, articulating them will introduce way more problems than something like this will solve.

But if you have the data to make a solid case for this, we'd be open to at least looking into the concept

Replying to @CliffSecord@nicecrew.digital

𝓦𝓪𝓲𝓯𝓾.

4d

there are plenty of LSA props that are electrically articulating, and when MOSAIC hits most small GA aircraft will fit into the LSA category.

Replying to @AWIVR@nicecrew.digital

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

Yea, that was basically the thought.

But I wouldn't try to pitch it to anybody who wasn't already casually dreaming about being able to include variable pitch in their offering...

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

𝓦𝓪𝓲𝓯𝓾.

4d

I flew a Grumman with one of these electrically variable pitch props from MT once. The owner STC'd an O360 with a fixed pitch 2 blade to a electrically variable 3 blade. You toggle pitch with a 3 position switch. I thought it was pretty neat https://www.mt-propeller.com/mt/en/products/propeller-systems/electric-propellers-1086/

Replying to @AWIVR@nicecrew.digital

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

That's pretty neat. Hopefully MOSAIC will make this stuff become a cheap lump of metal, because there's really no reason that it wouldn't be. Neither the oil pressure system nor the gigantic bearings are really necessary AFAICT.

Replying to @AWIVR@nicecrew.digital

Cliff "It Never Happened" Secord 🇺🇸🇦🇹

4d

We'll be doing a Rotax 916 iS A driving a Sensenich 3B0 prop on an FP CS hub on our bird.

Full FADEC control from the powertrain... set & forget. Prop set at the push of a button.

It'll make me yearn for the days of constantly screwing around with throttle, pitch, mixture and manifold pressure! Fuck it...who am I kidding?😆

Replying to @CliffSecord@nicecrew.digital

𝓦𝓪𝓲𝓯𝓾.

4d

I fly PC-12 NG's now. No FADEC, but one PCL to control everything. Managing three levers is for the birds.

Replying to @AWIVR@nicecrew.digital

Cliff "It Never Happened" Secord 🇺🇸🇦🇹

4d

A great, great airplane.

One of our accounts has us doing aero analysis work on the U-28 variants for AFSOC.

Replying to @CliffSecord@nicecrew.digital

𝓦𝓪𝓲𝓯𝓾.

@alchemy@nicecrew.digital remote

4d

I may or may not be incredibly familiar with those lol.

The program ends next year with no real replacement.

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

alchemy

4d

When I did comp intel. one route to destroy patentability and protect freedom to operate is to publish or otherwise release the information publicly. If you are just going to release it to the public anyway, release the plans on github or in a journal.

Replying to @CliffSecord@nicecrew.digital

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

As far as I can see, constant speed is just variable pitch plus a control box. So in my initial idea, I didn't really make a distinction whether it's you setting pitch, or the computer.

Replying to @AWIVR@nicecrew.digital

Cliff "It Never Happened" Secord 🇺🇸🇦🇹

4d

Ever try out a Piaggio P.180?

Cheesy-looking but man, she is a dream to fly!

Replying to @alchemy@nicecrew.digital

Caleb James DeLisle

4d

This general topic has been explored a lot in the past, so I don't think there's a patent in here that will actually block off the ability to research the area. My thought is more to patent one precise design and then try to bootstrap a little ecosystem around it, make the CNC codes available free for non-commercial (i.e. home built), and license it for anyone doing it commercially...

Replying to @CliffSecord@nicecrew.digital

𝓦𝓪𝓲𝓯𝓾.

4d

there's one that flies in and out of OKC all the time. I'd rather have a King Air. Less to stress about when something breaks lol

Replying to @AWIVR@nicecrew.digital

Cliff "It Never Happened" Secord 🇺🇸🇦🇹

@Yo@noauthority.social remote

4d

For sure. Having parts & maintenance handy across the nation are always a good thing.

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

Y

Yo

4d

@cjd Oh, so based on engine speed. More force, less pitch?

Replying to @Yo@noauthority.social

Caleb James DeLisle

@lispi314@udongein.xyz remote

4d

That's normally more-or-less what you want. When you're taking off and the air is moving pretty slow, you need a fine pitch so that you can get the engine to max rev and make full horsepower.

But then when you're up in cruise, the air is moving past the blades a lot faster so to make the same thrust the engine would have to run much faster than it's designed for. So you want a sharper pitch to take a bigger bite out of the air.

And then if you want to save fuel, you want to slow the engine down from its max speed, so then you want the prop to take an even bigger bite out of the air.

Either you do this with a lever or you have a computer doing it for you...

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

LisPi

3d

@cjd @Zeb > anyone selling the hub to the public can license it for 20% of their sale price

That makes it impossible to sell it at-cost/non-profit, that's not okay.

Replying to @lispi314@udongein.xyz

Caleb James DeLisle

@lispi314@udongein.xyz remote

3d

How do you imagine people deal with VAT or sales tax?

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

LisPi

3d

@cjd @Zeb By including it in the price. That becomes at-cost + VAT.

You're implying that's an acceptable outcome. It isn't.

Sales tax is harmful and shouldn't be encouraged.

Replying to @lispi314@udongein.xyz

Caleb James DeLisle

3d

Ahh but you didn't say that it's "harmful" or that it "shouldn't be encouraged".

You said that a 20%-of-sale-price fee makes it IMPOSSIBLE to sell without profit - until I pointed out that basically every government in the world does this already.

That's not a typo, that's something that people who have experience with money and budgeting would never say.

So now I know that you've never sold anything before, and most likely you live at home - and budgeting is mostly something your parents manage.

And you would like me to take your opinions about sales tax and intellectual property seriously.

Interesting.

Caleb James DeLisle

@lispi314@udongein.xyz remote

3d

Sales tax also distorts, it reduces division of labor. Hard to get away from distortion...

Replying to @cjd@pkteerium.xyz

LisPi

3d

@cjd @Zeb

You said that a 20%-of-sale-price fee makes it IMPOSSIBLE to sell without profit - until I pointed out that basically every government in the world does this already.

It is what people do, but logically it makes no sense.

Apply on sale price -> new sale price, need to re-apply -> apply infinitely. There is no condition given for stop. It's improperly defined.

So now I know that you've never sold anything before, and most likely you live at home - and budgeting is mostly something your parents manage.

If you're going to resort to ad hominem bullshit that isn't even accurate to start with, you could just block me instead.

Replying to @lispi314@udongein.xyz

Caleb James DeLisle