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Caleb James DeLisle

Whoa, 12kwh/kg is the energy density of diesel fuel.
Chemical energy, no engine losses considered...

If that's real, then aviation is about going to get electrified...

CC: @CliffSecord

Cliff "It Never Happened" Secord 🇺🇸🇷🇺

@CliffSecord@nicecrew.digital remote

I wouldn't be so sure.

First, CATL is a Chinese activity, well-known across industry to be fueled with the end products of industrial espionage- I wouldn't trust their shit to power a flashlight.
Second, even this group openly concedes that 12kWh/kg is purely theoretical at this point, as their current prototype arrays are only doing a tenth of this projected performance. They have a long way to go.
Third, hype is all good with a proven product that's market-ready, but when false hype on YT by third-party fanboys & influencers flood the space, it does far more harm to any advances in the state of the art than it does good.

https://interestingengineering.com/energy/catl-12000-wh-kg-lithium-air-ev-battery

☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️

@KingOfWhiteAmerica@poa.st remote

It’s my understanding that Aluminum-Air battery infrastructure wouldn’t have the same energy density - but would be so much cheaper to manufacture and implement as an exchange network, that it might very well be worth it.

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote

Aluminum oxide?

The problem with that is it bonds so tightly that reversing the process is miserable.

☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️

@KingOfWhiteAmerica@poa.st remote

Yeah I’m fuzzy on the specifics - and it was a few years back and I haven’t heard any updates lately. Aluminum oxide is indeed a pain in the ass - which I believe is part of why they pitched it as an exchange because recharging is beyond what consumers can normally be expected to afford.

Caleb James DeLisle

@cjd@pkteerium.xyz remote

There's a neat trick where you catch the end of an aluminum wire on fire (presumably using electric arc) and then plunge it into water and it yanks o2 off of the water making a whole lot of h2.

It leaves alumina sludge in the water which you need to take to an aluminum smelter to get it back to it's original state.

IIRC the round trip efficiency is quite abysmal because the aluminum smelting process is insane.

☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️

@KingOfWhiteAmerica@poa.st remote

Yeah I briefly looked into it; and the running gig now is “gassing up” with continually refreshed electrolyte solution - until eventually the aluminum anode is dead and must be replaced. Which is as you mentioned the standard aluminum smelting process 😂

Replying to @KingOfWhiteAmerica@poa.st

☦️KingOfWhiteAmerica☦️

@KingOfWhiteAmerica@poa.st remote

So while that does put a pretty strict cap on systemic thermodynamic efficiency, overall it looks competitive with lithium-ion systems.

The big downside I can foresee is that we can’t really expect to have nice things until our demographic situation improves.

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Replying to @KingOfWhiteAmerica@poa.st

Cliff "It Never Happened" Secord 🇺🇸🇷🇺

@CliffSecord@nicecrew.digital remote

We did a light GA aero powertrain trade study with a petro company in Houston over a year ago; they've been hard at work developing Flouride-Ion battery systems. Extremely promising and fully non-toxic. One of their prototype cells powered our 2hp infusion vacuum pump for over a month!