Egregoros

My first thought is to wonder if the world that John Calvin lived in didn't care deeply with the philosophical questions about freewill. Sure it was discussed by the Romans and others previously, but maybe this just was just watered down or forgotten by the time of the reformation.

When you look at people downstream from Calvin, such as the 1600s Puritans and even modern PCA Presbyterians, they tend to not be overly evangelical. They believed in "the elect," and God would bring those to him with irresistible grace. Calvinist missionary work is still very different from the born-againers looking to get people saved.

But I don't fault the ideology in general. To believe in an absolute all-powerful god, that god would have to know the future, while also allowing the free well of creation to make that choice. There are paradoxes in all fields, including mathematics with set theory and varying sizes of infinity.

@azalea @djsumdog btw if you want an image of monergist resistible grace, look to lutheranism regeneration (through baptism) happens regardless of the state of your heart and no particular action is required for salvation (they would emphasize that we still need to be reborn every day. its not like american evangelicals would have it). its more a matter of not fighting against gods grace (resistible grace!). the reformed anathematized the lutherans for saying you could choose against god when given grace

basically: no, the reformed do not believe in free will in the conventional sene at all. it isnt a “god knows ahead what you’ll choose” thing. god chose specifically for you to choose. they do believe in something theyd call free will but its absolutely not what you were talking about from what i saw

> lutheranism regeneration (through baptism)

So do they believe you can "lose your salvation?" It's no the act of Baptism itself if they need daily renewal?

You're more up to date on this than I am. I left the faith ~2002 I think. I was a born-againer / non-denominational. I never became a church member ... (never got baptized either ) but I mostly went to a PCA church every Sunday. I did some missionary work in Indian in he 90s too.I went to one PCUSA church out West in 2000. I remember they had both wine and grape juice during communion, and I talked to one of the elders for a bit after the service on the church's stance on homosexuality.

I only heard of "Reformed" a few years ago, and that from a Babylon Bee podcast. My sister's family are all evangelicals and it's interesting discussions taking place over reformed, dispensationalism .. and other theological schools of though.

@djsumdog @azalea i go to a lutheran church presently bc of my current circumstances but im an episcopalian in my heart (and intend to go to an episcopal church when i move)

lutheran and reformed were the two wings of the reformation. lutherans see luther’s interpretation of augustinian theology as a necessary correction to problems that had developed in the roman catholic church.

the other traditions (presbyterian, continental reformed, anglican) were all reformed (though anglicans ended up being more conservatively reformed long term)

then jacob arminius proposed some level of free will, and the arminian protestants split off from the reformed (remonstrants, methodists, and a lot of anglicans). the bulk of american protestants fit in this category