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@lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @volpeon@icy.wyvern.rip Just because Arch is terrible doesn't mean this applies to every other distro though.
@SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @volpeon@icy.wyvern.rip it does not have to do anything with arch itself. This can happen with every distro, if GRUB gets an update but fails or if the initcpio-Image was not build successfully.
The best way to avoid those issues is, by reading through the output of your package manager and ensuring that the installation of GRUB and the Initcpio process were successful.
@kitsune_yasu@waldbewohner.eu @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @volpeon@icy.wyvern.rip
This can happen with every distro, if GRUB gets an update but fails or if the initcpio-Image was not build successfully.I'm not that familiar with Arch, but it sounds extremely incompetent to me that Pacman would just continue updating and not fail if grub-install fails.
Debian, for example, has a transaction based package manager so that makes sure when failures like this happen the old stuff that was previously working is not overwritten. So that definitely sounds like a design flaw in Pacman.
@SuperDicq @lanodan @kitsune_yasu @volpeon pacman never does anything with a bootloader. There are two (three) main failure modes that pacman has:
- distro keyring not up to date, failing package authenticity check (archlinux-keyring needs to be updated first)
- pacman deletes initrds on transaction start meaning that if your system fails in the middle of an update, you not only have a system in an unknown state with half-extracted packages, but also no kernel to boot
- when using BTRFS, the free space check can fail because free space as reported by BTRFS isn't actually real and it doesn't use the specific btrfs library for getting free space
- distro keyring not up to date, failing package authenticity check (archlinux-keyring needs to be updated first)
- pacman deletes initrds on transaction start meaning that if your system fails in the middle of an update, you not only have a system in an unknown state with half-extracted packages, but also no kernel to boot
- when using BTRFS, the free space check can fail because free space as reported by BTRFS isn't actually real and it doesn't use the specific btrfs library for getting free space
@phnt@fluffytail.org @SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @kitsune_yasu@waldbewohner.eu @volpeon@icy.wyvern.rip
- distro keyring not update to date failing package authenticity check (archlinux-keyring needs to be updated first)Wait, that's not supposed to happen?
@lolitechengineer @phnt @SuperDicq It's not, other distros just have keyring put into a package, so it gets updated normally.
I got that one in my containers and well… tossed Arch out definitively because there's a point where it's just pure incompetence.
I got that one in my containers and well… tossed Arch out definitively because there's a point where it's just pure incompetence.
@lanodan @lolitechengineer @SuperDicq It is packaged and it gets updated when you update the system, but when you don't update for a long time, new packages can be signed with keys that aren't in your old system keyring and there's no automatic pre-upgrade step for updating that keyring. Hence why the manual update is necessary.
Gentoo solved this issue by force-updating the wkd on every update before emerge even resolves dependencies.
Gentoo solved this issue by force-updating the wkd on every update before emerge even resolves dependencies.
@phnt@fluffytail.org @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @lolitechengineer@loli.church At least we can all agree here that Arch is terribly designed.
@SuperDicq @lanodan @lolitechengineer Nope, still the best power user distro if you don't need the use flag autism of Gentoo. Everything else including Debian is a bad joke (except Mint for newbies).
@phnt@fluffytail.org @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @lolitechengineer@loli.church Also the best power user distro is GNU Guix.
How can you even call yourself a power user if you have never learned the power of Scheme?
@SuperDicq @lanodan @lolitechengineer ((((((((((lisp))))))))))
I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole
I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole
@phnt@fluffytail.org @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @lolitechengineer@loli.church That's fine, not everybody has to be a power user.
@SuperDicq @lanodan @lolitechengineer It is gnuware anyway, so I wouldn't use it either way unless I absolutely had to.
@phnt@fluffytail.org @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @lolitechengineer@loli.church You one of those weirdo Alpine/Chimera GNU avoiders? Having nightmares of Stallman's feet?
@SuperDicq @lanodan @lolitechengineer No, but I would run LLVM/musl Gentoo profile if I didn't want to use Steam.
@SuperDicq @lanodan @lolitechengineer Not for technical reasons (except glibc sucking), but just to spite people like you. :)
@shinyoukai@izu.laidback.moe @phnt@fluffytail.org @SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me BSD seems really interesting but it seems its not ready yet
@lolitechengineer also Hyperbola is a fucking joke, 2026 and they never released @SuperDicq @lanodan @phnt
@shinyoukai@izu.laidback.moe @lolitechengineer@loli.church @lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me @phnt@fluffytail.org I personally think Hyperbola is a bit of a nutjob project in my opinion.
For example the only reason they are making a BSD version now I think is because they think Rust in Linux is bad. I mean I don't like Rust either, but is it that really enough of a reason to switch to fucking BSD? Wouldn't it be less bad to just remove the Rust parts from Linux?
Hyperbola also does not allow any software that is developed by a for-profit company. Yes this means that Hyperbola does not support basic shit like zstd because it is developed Facebook.
It's bonkers.
If I really wanted to screw up my system using pacman I'd rather install Parabola which seems like a project ran by sane people.
@SuperDicq @phnt @lolitechengineer @shinyoukai Yeah, it gives me vibes that are kind of similar to what you can find in suckless.org and related, lot of rambly declarations that aren't really linked to acts (similar to vaporware and virtue signals), barely anything to show and tends to define itself almost entirely as anti-
@SuperDicq @lolitechengineer @phnt @shinyoukai In a rather ironic way, almost the opposite of OpenBSD, which has done lot of things and tends to do reimplementations or redesigns when what's available doesn't works well enough for them (OpenSSH, LibreSSL, doas, openrsync, signify, …) instead of just throwing things away.
@lanodan @shinyoukai @lolitechengineer @SuperDicq At least with suckless you get what you signed up for. A base piece of software you patch into something that suits specifically you with the provided patches or your own. If you come to them expecting something usable out of the box, you will be disappointed no matter what. Or if you want a piece of software that is maintained but never changes.
With Hyperbola it's removing things for the sake of removing things, because we don't like some abstract interpretation of dumb politics. In a way, it perfectly fits the GNU maximalism mindset. Instead of letting a user choose whether they want to use non-free blobs on _their own_ hardware, we choose for them and remove that ability to even do so, because we are smarter than the user, and because we hate choice, and letting the user patch our patches so that they can do what they really want. Just because we have some abstract dumb opinion on what proprietary firmware is. There's no actual progress made, just removal of options for the sake of
removing them, while thinking you are holier than thou.
And then if you come to the BSD crowd, it is a completely different mindset. Instead of coming to a discussion being dead set on the "only proper way" and arguing only for that, the discussion starts level headed and without predetermined outcome.
With Hyperbola it's removing things for the sake of removing things, because we don't like some abstract interpretation of dumb politics. In a way, it perfectly fits the GNU maximalism mindset. Instead of letting a user choose whether they want to use non-free blobs on _their own_ hardware, we choose for them and remove that ability to even do so, because we are smarter than the user, and because we hate choice, and letting the user patch our patches so that they can do what they really want. Just because we have some abstract dumb opinion on what proprietary firmware is. There's no actual progress made, just removal of options for the sake of
removing them, while thinking you are holier than thou.
And then if you come to the BSD crowd, it is a completely different mindset. Instead of coming to a discussion being dead set on the "only proper way" and arguing only for that, the discussion starts level headed and without predetermined outcome.
@phnt @shinyoukai @lolitechengineer @SuperDicq Suckless did some software that can work, but their community has those kinds of weird "Remove things just because we don't like it, keeping things in a working state? Naaah".
Like take a look at stali, or almost any other suckless distro, there's typically no C compiler at all, and a bunch of suckless software (dwm, dmenu, …) are entirely absent because well no graphical session.
(One exception is Oasis Linux, but not sure how suckless related it is, mcf might just have grabbed sbase because it's simple to compile)
Like take a look at stali, or almost any other suckless distro, there's typically no C compiler at all, and a bunch of suckless software (dwm, dmenu, …) are entirely absent because well no graphical session.
(One exception is Oasis Linux, but not sure how suckless related it is, mcf might just have grabbed sbase because it's simple to compile)
@lanodan @shinyoukai @lolitechengineer @SuperDicq The community is kind of exactly what you expect from wannabe power users that want to feel better than everybody else. A very reddit-esque behavior. They are basically larpers that call everything they don't want or agree with bloat like the meme that died at decade ago.
When you remove the community from the project and its maintainers, you get a pretty high quality pieces of software (except dumb variable names) ready to be hacked on. But that is the case with many projects these days. Look at a certain oxidized language that was interesting and ruined by the annoying community around it.
>suckless distros
Never heard of them and making a suckless distro is the dumbest thing you can do with it. Since the software is made to be patched by a user directly and not properly packaged. The only things that properly work as expected without patching is dmenu, maybe dwm and probably the init system.
When you remove the community from the project and its maintainers, you get a pretty high quality pieces of software (except dumb variable names) ready to be hacked on. But that is the case with many projects these days. Look at a certain oxidized language that was interesting and ruined by the annoying community around it.
>suckless distros
Never heard of them and making a suckless distro is the dumbest thing you can do with it. Since the software is made to be patched by a user directly and not properly packaged. The only things that properly work as expected without patching is dmenu, maybe dwm and probably the init system.
@phnt @shinyoukai @lolitechengineer @SuperDicq > Since the software is made to be patched by a user directly and not properly packaged.
It could be like AT&T Unix/BSD/Plan9, where you go in /src or similar directory, do your edits, and type a command like make to recompile, but for this it needs to be a non-toy system where you have things like development tools.
@jesu @shinyoukai @lolitechengineer @SuperDicq @lanodan Autistic about POSIX compliance. Their gcc build doesn't install the c89 and c99 wrappers, so build systems can break.
@jesu @phnt @shinyoukai @lolitechengineer @SuperDicq Specially with POSIX mention, like hopefully tossing out c89/c99/c17 (each version requires a single wrapper) is the only thing it explicitly does.
(I also have those wrappers tossed out on my system but to be sure cross-compiling will work)
(I also have those wrappers tossed out on my system but to be sure cross-compiling will work)
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@lanodan @shinyoukai @lolitechengineer @SuperDicq @jesu There probably is some reasoning behind that I never bothered to check, but it is a bit weird choice.