Egregoros

@georgia

What is it these days the whole world thinks it's italian?

> The analysis revealed two distinct subgroups within the remains: one with greater Middle Eastern ancestry, which may represent Jews with origins in Western Germany, and another with greater Eastern and Central European ancestry. The modern Ashkenazi population formed as a mix of these groups and absorbed little to no outside genetic influences over the 600 years that followed, the authors said.

As per the DNA. There is no southern Italian.

@joey thats a misrepresentation of the study, which ive also seen. "we considered a model where EAJ is a mixture of the following sources: Southern European (South Italians or North Italians), Middle Eastern (Druze, Egyptians, Bedouins, Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians, or Saudis), and Eastern European (Russians). We used modern populations as sources, as modeling with ancient sources was unsuccessful (Data S1, section 7). Multiple models with South-Italians were plausible (p>0.05; Table S3), which would be consistent with historical models pointing to the Italian peninsula as the source for the AJ population (Data S1, section 16; though see below for alternatives and caveats). The mean admixture proportions (over all of our plausible models; Table S3) were 65% South Italy"

this study corroborates other studies which find ashkenazi euro admixture to be almost entirely southern italian.

@georgia
Lol @ using modern populations. My family are as southern Italian as you can go before falling off the edge and my blood is a mix of greek, spanish, catalonian, middle eastern, german and norman and god knows what else.

There is a village 20 km North of my dad's birth place in Sicily where the locals speak some type of ancient german dialect inherited from their ancestors that migrated there from germany over 500 years ago.

Southern Italian heritage is extremely localised. language can differer from town to town. Only a person who has no understanding of the extreme south would give that study any credibility.

@meowski @technolyze not sure why im arguing with you because believing debunked and fringe theories is your entire thing but ehran elhaiks studies are fringe and so are the linguistic theories of wexler (I actually know a little bit about linguistics and no one else uses "relexification" as liberally as him). theyre literally the only mentionable academics supporting the khazar myth, no one else takes them seriously at all. elhaiks modus operandi as a mendacious academic is quite consistent, he always either uses tools no one else uses because of their unreliability or he chooses proxies stupidly and with clear bias, like choosing azerbaijani jews (descended from Iraqi jews) and armenians (who are mediterranean not turkic) for khazars and choosing beduoins (arabians) for Israelites. instead of choosing say, Tatars (turkic) and Druze (found in syria and closely related to all major jewish groups). the fact is almost all studies find significant and even predominant southern euro admixture along with middle eastern, and "ashkenazi jews are descended from Israelites and roman converts to judaism" plainly explains this.

@georgia @technolyze that's just one study and i'm not sure how debunked or accurate it is. when you look at the totality of genetic research on origins of ashkenazis, all i can conclude is that 1, it's some admixture of european and *possibly* middle eastern descent, and 2, it's inconclusive at best, and 3, ashkenazis have been living in europe since the middle ages when they migrated or converted to judaeism.

but the relevance to modern politcs and the state of israel, and the so called "right of return," and also why you seem so bothered, is the more important issue. and to me, regardless of the details of ashkenazi ancestry, you do not get to stroll into some palestinian's home and delcare that to be your home because God's Chosen™

as long as we can agree on that point i really don't care about the rest.

@georgia @technolyze this is fine to debate this. i just can't get behind any 3rd temple building, red heifer sacrificing fanatics because of twisted interpretation of prophecy, and stealing and bombing people's homes on flimsy questionable genetic evidence that these fanatics think justifies any atrocity and gives them a right to some land that can't claim any direct link to for at the past 1200 years. even if for argument's sake, diaspora jews were 100% descended from ancient israelites, i STILL would reject the premise of the right of return

Jesus came to fulfill the law, and that inheritance belongs to everyone regardless of nationality or ancestry and we're all God's chosen people now.

@meowski @technolyze I agree with the last part and that no one should be dispossessed, but people have been dispossessed again and again in the history of Canaan. it returning to being partly jewish (btw the middle eastern ashk ancestry isnt tentative its 25-60 percent by all reliable studies) is just part of that history, so as long as no more atrocities and dispossession happen in both a palestinian and an israeli state then were good. the major obstacle to peace right now is that leadership on both sides is recalcitrant, while the Israelis are actively commiting apartheid and a genocide as well. let's hope all that ends.

@georgia @technolyze the modern state of israel itself is founded on fake atrocity propaganda (the holocaust)

how far do we have to go back to reset, to say "no more atrocities?" after right now? cause israel just killed 70000 innocent people by carpet bombing gaza because 1500 people died, most of whom were actually killed by their own military, in a deliberate stand-down LIHOP that they knew was coming.

so what about those people whose land and homes and children have now been blown up? does that count, or are we re-setting after that?

the modern state of israel is an abomination. i want nothing to do with it. the USA will be cursed because of our relationship with it.

frankly it's such a mess there, i can't begin to offer a solution, other than cut off their free welfare and weapons that i shouldn't be responsible for, and let them sort it out

@yakmacker @georgia @technolyze when you look at the details of the layout of the camps, the capacity that would be needed to gas and incinerate 6 million people or bury them in mass graves, it doens't work out. not even close. the infrastructure wasn't right and the bodies haven't been found. it's the old "gas chambers with wooden doors" thing. totally impractical and not plausible on so many levels.

as far as the records, you're talking about a time when everything was on paper and the records were not that great but at the time estimates of the numbers of people dying in those camps were around 500k not 6m