Egregoros

@silverpill @p Doesn't surprise me Evan was involved in that once again. But Gleason actually figured something usable years prior to that with the NSFW MRF. You could easily host an API server and use some local selfhosted model for detection.

silverpill

@phnt @p Curiously, Gleason was supportive of the proposal, although at the time he already moved to Nostr (IIRC).

Also, some strange things started to happen in the aftermath of closing that PR. I started seeing vague posts expressing moderation concerns on Codeberg and SocialHub (in this thread, for example: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/scope-of-the-socialhub-policy/3506). People suddenly started talking about adding a CoC, etc etc. But every time I asked what this is about, there was silence.

pistolero

@silverpill @phnt

> Curiously, Gleason was supportive of the proposal

Is that curious?

> Also, some strange things started to happen in the aftermath of closing that PR. I started seeing vague posts expressing moderation concerns on Codeberg and SocialHub (in this thread, for example: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/scope-of-the-socialhub-policy/3506). People suddenly started talking about adding a CoC, etc etc. But every time I asked what this is about, there was silence.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT

pistolero

@fish@detroitriotcity.com remote

@silverpill @phnt Okay, well, to be fair, the timestamp on the "Scope of the socialhub policy" post is August 1, 2023, and the "PhotoDNA Attestation extension" is from August 4, but I think that was possibly preemptive, because he posted this on August 18:

https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/scope-of-the-socialhub-policy/3506/9

> Thanks. So, if I have a problem with how someone is behaving in PRs on codeberg, what do I do next?

And then in https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/scope-of-the-socialhub-policy/3506/12 and https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/scope-of-the-socialhub-policy/3506/13 , he made it explicit that this was about the PhotoDNA discussion.

And he directly retreats into "But think of the optics of not thinking of the children!"

> I ended up withdrawing the PR. I had adapted the proposal in the Stanford Internet Observatory’s Child Safety report into a FEP to start the discussion process. I was attacked personally in the comments, and the FEP wasn’t allowed to be merged. I don’t think it helped our movement to have such vigorous opposition to developing CSAM filtering standards.

Organ Ism

@p @phnt @silverpill > I was attacked personally in the comments

A lying little freak it turns out eh. 🇨🇦 🥖

pistolero

@fish @phnt @silverpill Yeah, the guy's a cock, right?

Incidentally, @strypey shows up in some of those threads and says sensible things.

Q.U.I.N.N.

@p @fish @phnt @strypey @silverpill huh, so hachyderm's insanity was sponsored.

wait, is the whole federated blacklist mandate sponsored bullcrap

pistolero

@icedquinn @fish @phnt @silverpill @strypey

> :blobcatderpy: wait, is the whole federated blacklist mandate sponsored bullcrap

Yes. See top post; hopefully the thread loads. Only ~100 posts at present.

Q.U.I.N.N.

@p @fish @phnt @strypey @silverpill my patience for Current Things is extremely limited and you pasted an opus

i no longer read 500 pages of the fall of man per day

pistolero

@icedquinn @fish @phnt @silverpill @strypey The short answer: IFTAS/Oliphant/Social Web Foundation/Newsmast/Fediblock/etc. are all the same people, modulo some regular well-meaning people, and are all funded by the Malthusian nihilist cabal.

Q.U.I.N.N.

@p @fish @phnt @strypey @silverpill and here i thought humans were just collectively stupid, as they tend to be

pistolero

@icedquinn @fish @phnt @silverpill @strypey
rockpaperscissors_but_its_society.jpg

Strypey

https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths

@p Reminds me of what Chapman says in the first essay I ever read on Meaningness;

"... you could recognize sociopaths and eject them. Geeks may be pretty good at the recognizing, but are lousy at the ejecting. Mops don’t recognize sociopaths, and anyway don’t care. Mops have little investment in the subculture, and can just walk away when sociopaths ruin it. By the time sociopaths show up, mops are numerically most of the subculture."

@icedquinn @fish @phnt @silverpill

Light

@light@noc.social remote

@strypey
This is just yet more division. @p @icedquinn @fish @phnt @silverpill

Strypey

@light
> This is just yet more division

Maybe, or is it a legitimate example of the paradox of tolerance? Where tolerating sociopaths in the fediverse dev community (instead of identifying and ejecting them) ends up reducing the capacity of the community to be inclusive?

@p @icedquinn @fish @phnt @silverpill

Q.U.I.N.N.

@strypey @light @p @fish @phnt @silverpill that isn't what popper wrote even though it is deeply misquoted.

the paradox of tolerance is an open society always contains the possibility that people vote away their open society. it is the sine qua non of an open society. once you have thought police "to protect democracy" you no longer have an open society. and have extinguished your liberal democracy.

the society protects from violence against extreme opinions and vigilance protects against voting the extreme opinions in to place. you can't get rid of it without no longer having the thing you are trying to protect.

nobody seems to have ever read the book.

Strypey

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/paradox-tolerance

(1/?)

@icedquinn
> nobody seems to have ever read the book

I admit I haven't (I must), but I did investigate what Popper actually said;

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."

@fish @phnt @p @silverpill @light

Q.U.I.N.N.

@strypey @fish @phnt @p @silverpill @light
if you read the book, the context of this claim is after 25% of the book goes on about how much popper hates plato and spent chapters reiterating "plato's republic is authoritarian as fuck, actually"

the stuff about limited tolerance is spoken in direct context of people exiting a classical authoritarian society and discussing the dangers of grognards sliding society directly back in to hierarchical strong man cultures.

people don't read it and decide it means calling randos nazis but it was spoken with the very real and ongoing concern throughout time of people rotting democracy back in to dictatorships.

poppers smugness is that if violence is off the table, then reason holds for the best argument, and the best argument is empirically the open society, so they have the advantage of self-demonstrating being the best outcome and not needing special favor.

the whole book is very much against authoritarian solutions to problems. unlimited tolerance is spoken next to societies that literally did the "someone is a threat to our power with their words, kill them" behavior people actually misquote the paradox to justify.

Strypey

(1/?)

This is all out of context, because what I'm proposing clearly isn't "authoritarian solutions", but systematic defence *against* them. But since we're arguing the toss ...

@icedquinn
@fish @phnt @p @silverpill @light

pistolero

@sampler@freebeerextremist.com remote

@strypey @icedquinn @fish @phnt @silverpill @light

> (1/?)

WE HAVE TO GET YOU MORE LETTERS

YOU CAN ATTACH AN 8MB JPEG TO POSTS BUT YOU CANNOT HAVE ENOUGH LETTERS TO TYPE FOR SOME REASON?

🐝🐝🐝

@p @icedquinn @fish @phnt @strypey @silverpill @light
Tweets having 140 character limit made sense before smartphones, when we used Twitter via sms (text 40404) . Not sure why Mastodon castrates itself for any reason other than fetish.

Does any Mastodon instance have Twitter-like text messaging or did they ever? I remember statusnet had xmpp built in but I don't think we ever had proper texting set up. (Maybe this is something revolver should consider)

As long as Mastodon is wearing a chastity belt, the char length be 140 instead of 280 (tweets 2.0 - now twice as much) / 500 (toots are almost twice as big as tweets 2.0 but 500 is a nice round number) because it's a number that actually makes sense

maybe they can get government funding from EU to implement sms integration to make it easier for the government to protect their users.

Phantasm

@sampler @icedquinn @fish @p @strypey @silverpill @light The reason is Gargron was autistic about his vision of a Twitter replacement and posts longer than 500 chars look ugly in the UI. It's a problem that will never get fixed because Mastodon desperately wants to be a Twitter alternative including the way it looks and displays threads.

The actual solution would be to widen the post view and decrease post text size, but that is too much to ask.

pistolero

@phnt @sampler @fish @icedquinn @light @silverpill @strypey

> posts longer than 500 chars look ugly in the UI

They look just fine in FediBBS. He should try having a better frontend. (Tweetdeck has always sucked.)
fedibbs.gif

Strypey

@p
> WE HAVE TO GET YOU MORE LETTERS

If multi-post threads really bother you I can switch to my Friendica account. I keep forgetting I have it, and I *hate* the cludgy interface with a burning passion. But if you *really* need me to ...

> He should try having a better frontend. (Tweetdeck has always sucked.)

The default Masto interface is modelled on Pinafore and has been for years. Although the one modeled on TD is still there as an opt-in.

pistolero

@strypey @icedquinn @fish @phnt @sampler @silverpill @light

> If multi-post threads really bother you

Not really, it just seems like at some point, tagging overhead eats the limit. Even Twitter stopped doing that, like, tags and links stopped counting towards the character limit. Mastodon *could* do the former because tags are an extra field (and more or less unconstrained).

I do think that it does make threads harder to read and participate in (by increasing the likelihood of duplication: if you have two paragraphs and the second one covers something relevant to the first, but people that go chronologically see the first one and then write a different version of your second paragraph before finding your second paragraph; this can compound, it is very funny when it does), but I'm just pokin' yer ribs, I ain't tore up.

> The default Masto interface is modelled on Pinafore and has been for years. Although the one modeled on TD is still there as an opt-in.

Ah. I mean...you see the UI that I wrote and use, I'm not sure what Pinafore *is*. (And if it gives you an idea, I used to use the bitlbee Twitter backend as my only Twitter interface. Until they killed off *all* alternative clients, you could have a reasonable time with Twitter by treating it like an IRC channel.)

Strypey

(1/?)

@p
> tags and links stopped counting towards the character limit

In Mastodon there's now a cap on how many characters each tag, link and @mention use up. One of the few benefits of this is limiting people's ability to spam me with massive numbers of links, tags and/or @mentions.

pistolero

@strypey @icedquinn @fish @phnt @sampler @silverpill @light

> In Mastodon there's now a cap on how many characters each tag, link and @mention use up.

As usual, they appear to have done something ridiculous.

Strypey

@p
> they appear to have done something ridiculous

Huh?

pistolero

@strypey @icedquinn @fish @phnt @sampler @silverpill @light Using *character* count to limit *tags* is really effin' stupid, especially given that you could just limit the number of tags if you cared about that. Doing it by character count is, like...you could do this in nginx already anyway. It's really stupid.

Strypey

@p
> Using *character* count to limit *tags* is really effin' stupid

Why? What serious problem(s) are caused by doing it this way?

pistolero

@strypey @icedquinn @fish @phnt @sampler @silverpill @light For one thing, short names on short instances producing short tags. They've enshrined as behavior some half-assed incorrect encoding of the *intended* behavior and this is how you end up with crusty, shitty behavior that is *mandated* because otherwise it doesn't *work*.

This is why Mastodon should be completely ignored by protocol implementors: they want to be the Mastodon Network, fine, let them. Stop letting them stomp on protocol design because someone on a jithub issue whined until someone did the dumbest fucking implementation that solved half of the wrong problem. It is time to cut them loose.

silverpill

@p @icedquinn @fish @phnt @sampler @strypey @light

>It is time to cut them loose.

It is becoming clear that this is not going to happen. Just look at the list of "Consent-respecting quote posts" implementers: https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/044f/fep-044f.md#implementations

Pleroma is next: https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7875

I don't think it will be any different with FASPs and encryption.

Phantasm

@silverpill @icedquinn @fish @sampler @p @strypey @light

https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma/pulls/7875

This does not implement anything meaningful in the spec and only makes quotes work on Mastodon (because they even fucked up that which worked for years before their attempt).

Trust me when I say that if the proper workflow as envisioned by Mastodon gets implemented in Pleroma, it gets patched out by most larger Pleroma instances almost immediately. Myself included, so if Nicole doesn't make it a toggle, I will. Nobody but Mastodon wants this, and I don't want the Twitter copy of hidden replies either.

silverpill

@phnt @icedquinn @fish @sampler @p @strypey @light Good to know that you're against fully supporting Masto-quotes. But I don't see a meaningful opposition anywhere in the network. Like, what's the plan? Let Mastodon/W3C do their thing until incompatibilities accumulate and the network splits? That's exactly what they want, to defederate "problematic" implementations into a tiny echo chamber.

pistolero

@silverpill @phnt @icedquinn @fish @sampler @strypey @light

> Like, what's the plan? Let Mastodon/W3C do their thing until incompatibilities accumulate and the network splits?

They are not meaningfully a part of the fediverse at this point. They have made a Twitter. It is no longer a platform that you use to communicate with friends: it is a broadcast-only circle-jerk and when it fails to be a broadcast-only circle-jerk people that want to "control the experience" and that can't distinguish between startup dipshittery and tech built by people to communicate with each other. Look at the early posts by the hachyderm dipshit, that guy's like "Oh, this isn't going to work, we have to eject these people and we have to make it advertiser-friendly because if we don't then fedi will never replace Twitter!" I don't want to replace Twitter with a shitty clone of Twitter: I want to replace Twitter with something good.

I intend to have a platform to communicate with friends and strangers. I don't really care if Mastodon decides to create a desert and call it peace. They have fundamentally different goals. Nobody complained when Gab fucked off (and they were, in many cases, fucked off before that: https://pastebin.com/E0k5fcd6 ), but somehow Mastodon is important? Go look at what they're putting onto the network: https://mastodon.social/explore .
gab_fears_the_fse2.png
gablins-fear-fse.jpg
trannydemonhackers.png

silverpill

@sampler@freebeerextremist.com remote

@p @icedquinn @fish @phnt @sampler @strypey @light

The point I am trying to make is not about Mastodon specifically. It's about network effects. I believe that in case of a network split almost all developers and users will defect to the Mastodon side, even those who are making fun of Mastodon today.

It's not going to be like Gab.

Of course, this situation is mostly theoretical, I don't expect it to happen within the next 2-3 years. And obviously, I don't think that we should be especially concerned about being cut off from the Mastodon Network. I am talking about building a viable alternative.

🐝🐝🐝

@silverpill @icedquinn @fish @phnt @p @strypey @light
Are you talking about bluesky

silverpill

@sampler @fish @light @phnt @icedquinn @strypey @p I hope Bluesky buys Mastodon at some point. I don't see any reason for them to compete with each other.

Phantasm

@silverpill @icedquinn @fish @sampler @p @strypey @light That would be a very funny user base implosion. Because both sides actively don't like each other.

silverpill

https://j12t.social/users/j12t/statuses/116421278749238608

@phnt @icedquinn @fish @sampler @p @strypey @light Oh, I am sure this is just a misunderstanding. Nothing a couple of joint events couldn't fix

Phantasm

@coolboymew@shitposter.world remote

@silverpill @icedquinn @fish @sampler @p @strypey @light The will surely love that decision. Bsky users already hate bsky leadership and Fedi is too complicated to them in their own words. Mastodon thinks they aren't decentralized and doesn't like the bsky leadership. Now they can hate both.

Tbh, picrel is probably the best solution anyway.
bluesky-refugees-grass.png

cool_boy_mew

@phnt @icedquinn @fish @sampler @p @strypey @silverpill @light Fixed it for you

BealtaineGoat

@Eiregoat@nicecrew.digital remote

Is it finally shutting down?

Phantasm

@Eiregoat@nicecrew.digital remote

@Eiregoat @icedquinn @fish @sampler @p @strypey @silverpill @light @coolboymew It shutting down would be a net negative. You don't want those people here.

BealtaineGoat

Why not? Inevitably one of their new instances will forget to defederate us and we can have another journo.post.

Chaotic Good-ish Barbarian

@Deplorable_Degenerate@eveningzoo.club remote

What if they join our instances though?

...

Strypey

@Deplorable_Degenerate
> What if they join our instances though?

Instances are like pubs. People like to hang out in different kinds of pubs, and that's OK. A pub stops being what it is if the social centre of gravity shifts. But that just means it becomes something else, and that's OK too.

As long as our city has space for many different kinds of pubs, everyone can find 1 or more they enjoy.

@icedquinn @fish @phnt @sampler @p @silverpill @Eiregoat@nicecrew.digital @light @coolboymew

Phantasm

@strypey @Deplorable_Degenerate @icedquinn @fish @sampler @p @silverpill @light @coolboymew

>A pub stops being what it is if the social centre of gravity shifts. But that just means it becomes something else, and that's OK too.

I disagree with this, instances are communities and those that try to shift the culture of the community unnaturally should be expelled from it and find another community. This is how hostile takeovers of communities happen and has been called invading or being a disruptive guest in forums for a reason. You will get kicked out of a pub for being disruptive as well.

Replying to @phnt@fluffytail.org

@cy@fedicy.us.to remote

Just want to point out the Nazi Bar allegory is bunk. Fascists operate by courting wealth, then buying the bar and turning it into a Nazi bar; they are the bartender, and they fool you into thinking they're just "tolerating" the Nazis who come in and bully people out.

Invaders don't arrive as a guest. They come in force. Hostile takeovers of communities by refugees fleeing disaster has n e v e r happened. If there's no army, there's no invasion. Invasion won't work without some military operations.

So yeah you can get kicked out of a pub for being disruptive. If your community's so weak it can't welcome outsiders though, that's not a problem with the outsiders.

CC: @icedquinn@blob.cat @fish@detroitriotcity.com @Deplorable_Degenerate@eveningzoo.club @sampler@freebeerextremist.com @p@fsebugoutzone.org @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz @silverpill@mitra.social @light@noc.social @coolboymew@shitposter.world

Replies

Replying to @cy@fedicy.us.to

Phantasm

@coolboymew@shitposter.world remote

@cy @icedquinn @fish @Deplorable_Degenerate @sampler @strypey @light @coolboymew

Have you noticed that the part of the thread you are replying to is mostly apolitical? Nobody is talking about a "Nazi Bar" or about "fascists".

>Hostile takeovers of communities by refugees fleeing disaster has n e v e r happened.

Factually incorrect, if you want the best example of that, look at furry communities and/or Tumblr exodus after its porn ban.

>If your community's so weak it can't welcome outsiders though, that's not a problem with the outsiders.

Outsiders are expected to respect the already existing culture of the community, that's it. Also a curious use of "weak". Weak to what, takeover?

Replying to @phnt@fluffytail.org

cool_boy_mew

@phnt @icedquinn @fish @Deplorable_Degenerate @cy @sampler @strypey @light I can't believe we're this long gone from the early 00s era of the Internet that we need to reiterate that "Lurk Moar" was an important netiquette that was more or less true to most random communities you'd find around

Replying to @phnt@fluffytail.org

Chaotic Good-ish Barbarian

@Deplorable_Degenerate@eveningzoo.club remote

In their defense I posted that video of the first round of twitter refugees showing up and having Nazi imagery flashed at them.

Yeah I still remember one of them saying "we need to chase these racists back to the dark corners of the internet"

That absolute retarded motherfucker didn't seem to realize where they were. Neither do they.

Replying to @phnt@fluffytail.org

Strypey

@icedquinn @fish @Deplorable_Degenerate @sampler @light @coolboymew

(1/2)

@cy
> Hostile takeovers of communities by refugees fleeing disaster has n e v e r happened

@phnt
> Factually incorrect, if you want the best example of that, look at furry communities and/or Tumblr exodus after its porn ban.

Can you expand on that? Who were the refugees here? What disaster were they fleeing? Whose communities were taken over?

Replying to @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz

Strypey

(2/2)

@phnt
> Outsiders are expected to respect the already existing culture of the community

How true this is and what it means depends entirely on context and scale.

If you're talking about people joining a fediverse service, or coming into a pub where everyone doesn't know their name, then sure. If you're talking about people standing up new services to join the fediverse, or starting a new pub in a city a bunch of them just moved to, then no. They're free to enact their own culture there.

Replying to @strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz

Phantasm