I see anyone who believes in sin and expiation quite much as Farnese of Berserk. They'd be great if they leave that crippling belief, they'll find many advance and start to see the world as it is.
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@sathariel i think sin is real, i mean what else would you call the act of raping kids and eating them?? 
@Loki something really fucked up and these guys are mad. But as you can see they are stupidly rich and probably will never face consequences from their wicked acts.
@Loki but if you want to call that sin I don't have any problem.
@sathariel @Loki what did you think I meant by sin lol. I dont believe in original sin, but everyone enters life with good and bad karma or else they wouldnt be reborn. to sin is to go against dharma and thus disturb rita. God has a perfect system of justice and one must live in harmony with the universe. of course sin can't touch a yogi but for others we are liable.
@georgia I don't know most of the weird words you use and I think it's better to avoid using them and explaining in a more simple language. I don't think one expiates sins through suffering, that's ridiculous and counterproductive. Suffering is inherent to existence as joy. Purification is very real though, as karma, that I see as things stored from your existence and other existences that avoids you to act in concordance with God's will, and while there isn't place for conflict I won't call it justice, that's just a very human desire.
@georgia I think there was a name for doing or action yoga, I don't remember the name. But that's the more effective imo.
@sathariel karma yoga is what youre thinking of, the path of action. deliberately self-inflicted suffering doesnt expiate anything, but suffering inflicted by the world burns up bad karma. thats how hell works! if people who are used to getting bad shit from the universe didnt get some reward for their suffering it wouldnt be a fair system.
@georgia hell exists only for sadistic and masochistic desires
@sathariel various hells exist appropriate to purify people of various sins but normally a bad birth on earth is enough
@georgia nothing is purified through suffering.
@sathariel @georgia try fasting. it's very purifying.
@sathariel @georgia just saying fasting is both suffering and purifying
@sathariel @georgia sure everyone's experience is different. many people find fasting purifying. t
@meowski @georgia yeah I haven't tried it, so I have no opinion on it. But I think anything that shows you a sincere reflection of yourself may be useful for purification. Fasting also could show you two main things to purify: desire and fear (even when you know you won't starve I'm guessing fear is there)
@sathariel @georgia i find it physically cleansing and helps get in control of desires. some people might experience fear if they've never tried it idk
@meowski @sathariel lots of cultures and religions have found fasting and other forms of asceticism to be purifying but only sense control can permanently eliminate desire for the sense objects
@sathariel @meowski when I say sense control I mean control of the sense faculties through yoga. a yogi can withdraw the senses like a tortoise its limbs
@sathariel @meowski without sensory distractions one can concentrate the mind and eventually becomes aware of pure consciousness
@georgia @meowski @sathariel
And it's good to say that meditation doesn't require negating the senses, but our relationship to them becomes nullified when the mind is deeply, deeply concentrated
And it's good to say that meditation doesn't require negating the senses, but our relationship to them becomes nullified when the mind is deeply, deeply concentrated
@sathariel @meowski @sampler that isnt dhyana. read patanjalis yoga sutras if youre curious about traditional meditation perhaps
@georgia @meowski @sampler @sathariel zen comes from the japanese word for dhyana but i think zen means something different now
@georgia @meowski @sampler @sathariel like zen literally means dhyana but the way it's used is a little bit more nuanced
@sathariel @meowski @sampler @unmind zen buddhism has a different approach to theravada or hindu yoga because they aim to reincarnate and while zen buddhism involves loss of ego they regain their ego for the benefit of all beings. is my understanding at least. zen sees no difference between samsara and nibbana and thus prefers samsara because while embodied you can help others discover their buddhahood.
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@sathariel @meowski @sampler @unmind I mean the question is are you fully enlightened if you still reincarnate? I think in theory yes but from looking at the dalai lama, no. maybe zen is better than vajrayana though idk
@sathariel @meowski @sampler @unmind this seems wise but full enlightenment has telltale signs, not just extraordinary siddhis which are often obstacles to yoga but freedom from anger, fear, and attachment, indescribable bliss, and in many traditions omniscience or a degree of it.